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Hold Off On Vista

Windows Vista hit the market today, but I'd hold off on purchasing it. To steal a bunch of self-promoting (for Mike Elgan) links from the Raw Feed:

1. Vista is incomplete
2. Vista is expensive
3. Vista wants a new PC
4. Vista is time-consuming
5. Windows XP isn't obsolete
6. Vista may be the best reason yet to buy a Mac

Here are 10 other good reasons to avoid Vista.

Seriously, though, Windows XP is fine for 99.9% of the folks out there, and I just have to wonder why we waited as many years as we did for this.

Posted by Jake on 01/30/07 @ 03:54 PM
Posted in Geekdom | 11 Comments | Permalink
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11 Comments

Rick said on 01/31/07 @ 06:46 AM:
I assume you haven't actually *used* the OS at all, or apparently read anything about the *major* underlying architecture changes that have happened in Vista? Surely its just UI changes, right? Who wants to pay for that....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windows_Vista

oh, wait, there are a few other changes....

1. XP is incomplete too. They are still releasing updates for it, after all.

2. For the Home Premium, you are paying around the same cost you did for XP. If you bought a computer with XP on it, you still paid for it, and you will likely be the type of person buying a new PC with Vista on it, rather than trying to upgrade anyhow.

3. 4GB is the sweet spot? I have used Vista a bit, with 2GB memory I didn't have any problems, and I do use my system quite heavily. IMHO 2GB is the sweet spot for windows XP, for the type of use I use it for, and it worked fine for Vista too. That said, you certainly won't be able to run it on a system purchased more than a few years ago, and even on some of those where you stuck with 512MB memory, you will have issues. Pixel Shader 2.0 is relatively old, and not an unreasonable requirement, as well a decent sized hard drive for search indexing shouldn't be.

4. For doing what most people do, Vista is no more time consuming than XP, and potentially less time consuming. Vista has the best upgrade process ive ever seen (you can "un-upgrade" if you don't like it), as well as (by far) the easiest install process.

5. Naturally, a prior OS doesn't become obsolete the day a new OS is released. This is a completely useless statement. The word "Duh" comes to mind....

6. I thought you were complaining about how Vista required a new hardware investment and was overpriced? Hmm, those don't really seem to jive well with this argument. If you think Microsoft OS upgrades are expensive, look at how often the MacOS upgrades are coming out, and then take a look at their price tag....

7. Those are not 10 other reasons, then are the same 6 reasons, and some other fluff thrown in.

I will be waiting on Vista until nvidia releases a stable driver for my video card, but everything I've done with Vista thus far has been completely enjoyable, and quite stable. Look at the price tag on a copy of XP Pro (which is about comparable to a copy of XP Home Premium), and see how much more expensive Vista is?

Misinformation abounds on the internet in regards to technologies that people don't research. Don't get too caught up in it.

Jake said on 01/31/07 @ 09:36 AM:
Boy, I should know better than to throw a MS related post up here in a hurry -- without really explaining myself -- with Rick around ;-)

I've been busy, dude, give me a break! <hehe>

I'm aware of all the underlying changes, but my point is this: Unless you're buying a new computer that can really take advantage of the OS (as it does require a good chunk of hardware), it's certainly not a MUST buy. I posted this mostly for people who have fallen into the various traps out there with the thinking that they MUST upgrade when that couldn't be further (farther?) from the truth. I've been asked by over a dozen people the last day or so if they should go out a buy a copy of Vista, and these are all people who have older, less powered computers, who really aren't even taking advantage of XP as it is (and are already griping about how slow it is, mostly because of all the crap they have installed).

So if you're a geek, are comfortable with the extra hardware you have to buy, or are getting a new system, Vista isn't a bad idea. However, if your system is working fine, or even a little slow, or is older, Vista is not going to work for you -- your XP install really just needs some spring winter cleaning first.

Jeff in pdx said on 01/31/07 @ 12:37 PM:
I think Vista will push a lot of people to owning a Mac...I used to be really geeky and was way to into my computer operating systems and what not. I just bought a Mac for the first time last month and I don't think I will ever look back. Windows somehow got so hard to keep up with . . .

Here is my personal evolution of operating systems through the years

1.) Dos
2.) Windows 98
3.) Windows ME (man that sucked)
4.) Windows XP (loved it)
5.) OS X (This is the dawn of the simple age...iPods...Wii's....etc....)

(By the way 3 months ago I hated Mac people and their rhetoric...)

Blake said on 01/31/07 @ 05:15 PM:
I thought the same until MS sent me a free version of Business for watching a few OS videos. I've had it up and running now for a week and I'm pretty much loving it. Most components and peripherals worked flawlessly right out of the box and it seems so nicely put together.

XP was a throw together because Win2k didn't really suit the average "non-business" user. They left out a lot of stuff that they finally could include in Vista, still a few things lacking (*most notably WinFS)

Yes! Do wait until you buy a new machine or have an absolute need for it, but I would hold off the Vista bashing until you spend a few days to a week with it.

By the way I just let my XP machine spend 15 minutes thumbnailing 500 photos AGAIN. Vista did it quickly and keep them in the correct view.

Jake said on 01/31/07 @ 09:40 PM:
You have an extra copy you can send my direction then, Blake? ;-)

Rick said on 02/01/07 @ 01:36 PM:
Jeff,

Vista will not push anyone into buying a Mac that wasnt already looking that direction anyhow.

1. Mac hardware is overpriced. Yeah, its good quality hardware, but at a price thats is far above equal quality PC hardware.

2. They still have to learn a new OS.

3. Just about anyone can help them with Windows.

4. You think Vista is expensive..... $250 after 5 years.... How much is *each* upgrade of MacOS? And how often are they released?

5. Upgradeability on any reasonbly priced Mac is either non-existant, or very difficult.

If Apple would start being a software company, and selling their OS for use on x86 hardware (which it can be used on now, naturally), I would probably pick it up. The fact is, everything Apple does is proprietary. They don't like having competition. MacOS requires apple hardware, iTunes only sells AAC files, the iPod, conveniently, is the only thing outside your PC that can play said AAC files (though, to its credit, the iPod will play MP3s, as long as you get them somewhere else), etc.

Windows will install on any compatible hardware, their music format is at least licensable and is used on many, many brands of players, etc.

--Rick

P.S. I own 2 iPods, and a G4Cube with OSX Tiger, in case you were wondering.

P.P.S. One mouse button = suck. Also, you have to be able to push both the left and right button at the same time for it to count as a two button mouse (to rule out the "Mighty" mouse ;) )

Jeff in pdx said on 02/01/07 @ 03:31 PM:
You're wrong about the mighty mouse...everything else is right. :)

Me said on 02/01/07 @ 04:05 PM:
You want some reasons not to buy Vista?

Read this:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

Zmidponk said on 02/03/07 @ 05:40 AM:
Hmm, OK, let's take what your points FOR buying Vista, Rick, and examine them:

'1. XP is incomplete too. They are still releasing updates for it, after all.'

OK, this is true. This means I should be thinking of buying Vista right around the time they're beginning to think about releasing Vista Service Pack 3.

'2. For the Home Premium, you are paying around the same cost you did for XP.'

Yeah - XP Home. the nearest equivalent to XP Home when looking at Vista would be Vista Home Basic. Those who bought XP Pro despite the fact they're using it on their home computer would want Vista Ultimate - which is around £330 here in the UK. XP Pro was £250 at release, and, frankly, that is still too expensive for an MS operating system.

'3. 4GB is the sweet spot? I have used Vista a bit, with 2GB memory I didn't have any problems, and I do use my system quite heavily. IMHO 2GB is the sweet spot for windows XP, for the type of use I use it for, and it worked fine for Vista too. That said, you certainly won't be able to run it on a system purchased more than a few years ago, and even on some of those where you stuck with 512MB memory, you will have issues. Pixel Shader 2.0 is relatively old, and not an unreasonable requirement, as well a decent sized hard drive for search indexing shouldn't be.'

What you've said is true - for high-end gaming machines. A surprisingly large number of PCs are actually things like office PCs and the little box in the corner granny uses to e-mail her son in Australia, things like that. As for the comment about 2GB being the sweet spot for XP, quite frankly, that's a load of bull. I used XP on 512MB, 1GB, then 2GB. It worked quite well on 512MB, and I saw a bit of improvement in XP going from 512MB-1GB, but negligible, if any, going from 1GB-2GB. With Vista, 512MB is the BARE MINIMUM.

'4. For doing what most people do, Vista is no more time consuming than XP, and potentially less time consuming. Vista has the best upgrade process ive ever seen (you can "un-upgrade" if you don't like it), as well as (by far) the easiest install process.'

Well, as far as installing, it seems no more or less difficult to install than XP. The RC1 I tested didn't recognise my SATA RAID, just like XP, so I had to figure out how to make a driver disk. Just like XP, that was the only problem. As for the upgrade process, it goes like this:

1) Run the install.
2) Confirm that, yes, you really want to run the install.
3) Confirm that yes, that file should be copied. And that one. And that one. And that one.
4) Confirm that, yes, you want to install that device.
5) Reboot.
6) Find the device isn't working.
7) Go online, find that someone else had the same problem, and figured out it's because Vista doesn't let you install 'unsigned' drivers.
8) Try to find a signed driver.
9) Fail.
10) Read about the 'disable driver signing' bit in the boot options.
11) Uninstall the driver, reboot, turn off the driver enforcement, reinstall the driver, reboot again.
12) See that Vista reports everything is hunky-dory, but the device simply fails to work. At all.
13) Format your hard drive and boot to your XP partition.

'5. Naturally, a prior OS doesn't become obsolete the day a new OS is released. This is a completely useless statement. The word "Duh" comes to mind....'

So why buy Vista?

'6. I thought you were complaining about how Vista required a new hardware investment and was overpriced? Hmm, those don't really seem to jive well with this argument. If you think Microsoft OS upgrades are expensive, look at how often the MacOS upgrades are coming out, and then take a look at their price tag....'

Also look at how Apple doesn't do a forced upgrade. Direct X 10 anyone?

Rick said on 02/07/07 @ 03:33 PM:
My arguments are not "For" buying Vista, they are simply to debunk the arguments "against" it, in this case. I couldn't care less if you buy it, honestly.

2.
Right now on Newegg, XP Home is $189. XP Pro is $279. Vista Home Premium is $227. Its really not that big of a difference. Vista Ultimate is not really comparable to XP Pro. Really, Home premium is much closer to XP Pro.

3.
For office machines, 1GB will be fine for Vista, the same as 512 was for XP, and 256 was for 2000. Requirements *will* go up.

4.
The XP install goes like this. (speaking from the point of an average user...)

1. Blue screen and a bunch of confusing loading messages.
2. Bunch of text and a few choices, Install, repair... Hmm, who knows
3. Choose a partition...
4. Choose a format, and whether to quick format.
5. wait 10-30 minutes for it to format
6. Files start copying
7. Ask for key (hopefully you don't have any problems at this point, because you will have wasted the last half an hour or so)
8. Verify time zone, etc
9. Spend about 10 more minutes installing, wait for user to walk away
10. Ask for networking info (definitely do not take the default, DHCP, etc. The user will want to set this manually).
11. Not much more after this

Vista:

1. GUI install screen comes up
2. Asks you for your key
3. Asks you which drive you want to install on
4. Installs the entire OS, with default networking, default time zone, etc. (will ask you all those questions immediately before being done)
5. OS installed, configure as you wish.

5.
That the prior OS isn't obsolete isn't a reason to buy Vista, but it isn't a reason *not* to either. Many people trade in their old cars when they are perfectly capable of still providing them reliable transportation, but they want something newer.

6.
DX10 is certainly not a required upgrade. Do you want to run DX10 games? Then you upgrade. Otherwise, DX10 is insignificant to you. Most games will have DX9 compatibility anyhow, so its really a moot point. Apple doesn't force you to upgrade, but many developers do take advantage of things that are not compatible with prior versions of their OS, and thus require an upgrade if you want to use the newest version. Same issue.

Zmidponk said on 02/08/07 @ 06:12 AM:
'2. Right now on Newegg, XP Home is $189. XP Pro is $279. Vista Home Premium is $227. Its really not that big of a difference. Vista Ultimate is not really comparable to XP Pro. Really, Home premium is much closer to XP Pro.'

1) $37 is enough of a difference to make it expensive, especially when even XP is overpriced.

2) Vista Ultimate is the ultimate version of Vista - just like XP Pro is the ultimate version of XP. Anyone who bought XP Pro rather than XP Home to use on their home PCs will not be content with Vista Home Premium - they will want Vista Ultimate.

'3. For office machines, 1GB will be fine for Vista, the same as 512 was for XP, and 256 was for 2000. Requirements *will* go up.'

On Vista, 1GB is the minimum to get the full features touted, including the 'Aero Glass' interface. 512MB is the bare minimum needed to run. On XP, 64MB was the bare minimum, 128MB was the minimum required to get all features to run. Requirements going up, fine. An eight-fold increase in memory requirements from one generation to the next? Not so fine.

'4. The XP install goes like this. (speaking from the point of an average user...)

1. Blue screen and a bunch of confusing loading messages.
2. Bunch of text and a few choices, Install, repair... Hmm, who knows'

Well, the clue is in that you're trying to INSTALL an operating system.

'3. Choose a partition...
4. Choose a format, and whether to quick format.
5. wait 10-30 minutes for it to format
6. Files start copying
7. Ask for key (hopefully you don't have any problems at this point, because you will have wasted the last half an hour or so)
8. Verify time zone, etc
9. Spend about 10 more minutes installing, wait for user to walk away
10. Ask for networking info (definitely do not take the default, DHCP, etc. The user will want to set this manually).
11. Not much more after this'

And the only one that Vista DOESN'T do is step 10. Vista still asks to select a partition. Vista still asks for a product key. Vista still asks to verify timezone. Vista still copies files (unless you're trying to say that Vista works in the same way as Linux Live CDs - installs itself without copying files to the hard drive). The only thing that can be said is that Vista automatically sets up your networking settings by assuming evrything will be as default, which can be done in XP by simply repeatedly clicking 'next' or 'OK'. The only other difference is arguable, at best - if, for some bizarre reason, you do not have a product key when you're installing, with Vista, you can just leave the field blank and install it, and get given 30 days to enter your key before it deactivates itself.

'5. That the prior OS isn't obsolete isn't a reason to buy Vista, but it isn't a reason *not* to either. Many people trade in their old cars when they are perfectly capable of still providing them reliable transportation, but they want something newer.'

But, in the case of Vista, it would be like trading in your car and buying a new one when all it needs is a new coat of paint to be, in all essential ways bar one, identical to to the 'new' car.

'6. DX10 is certainly not a required upgrade. Do you want to run DX10 games? Then you upgrade. Otherwise, DX10 is insignificant to you. Most games will have DX9 compatibility anyhow, so its really a moot point. Apple doesn't force you to upgrade, but many developers do take advantage of things that are not compatible with prior versions of their OS, and thus require an upgrade if you want to use the newest version. Same issue.'

Except that most, if not all, new graphics cards from here on out will be Direct X 10 graphics cards, and you need Direct X 10, which means you need Vista in order to take advantage of the full capabilities of it, and many, many, many people have had a look at Direct X 10 and said, whilst it wouldn't exactly be a five-minute job, there is no good reason NOT to have an XP version - except that Microsoft simply don't want to make it.

So, yes, Direct X 10 is not technically 'required', but, by the same standards, neither was anything past Windows 3.1, or possibly even before that.

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